Lee and Kathy challenge Mormons on the streets of Utah

Kathy and I spent several days witnessing and teaching at the 50th Anniversary of the Mormon Miracle Pageant in Manti, Utah. Over 250 Christians from around the Country meet in this small Mormon Community to participate in the largest single outreach to the Mormon people each year. Our witnessing to the young adults of the Mormon Church was particularly well received as they honestly want to know the Truth, and yet they instinctively know that they have been deceived to some degree.

While in Manti at the Mormon Miracle Pageant, we spoke with several current members of the Mormon Faith and several Christians who had left Mormonism.

At one point, Kathy was asked by several Mormons,

“Why do you come out here to our event to speak against our church?

She responded,

“Well, just like the Mormon Church sends thousands of 18-19 year old men and women out to be Missionaries, we are Christian missionaries. We come here to Manti to be able to witness to the Mormon people. People have taken off of work, taken their vacation time and have driven here to Utah from all over the United States, because they want to teach the Mormon people to trust the Bible. You see throughout the New Testament, it says that we are saved by Grace and NOT by our works.”

She then quoted: Eph 2:8-9:

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.”

But the Mormon Church teaches that you must work your way to be worthy to enter inside of the LDS temple on your way toward exaltation. Only then can you gain your salvation at the highest level, to live with God in the Celestial Kingdom.

Lee and President Hintze

We also had a lengthy discussion with Mormon High Priest and Former Manti Stake President Scott D. Hintze specific to the Mormon Church Gospel Topic Essays on Polygamy (found on lds.org), which claim that the current membership of the Mormon Church “should” have known of the very private and immoral details of Joseph Smith’s polygamist activities. (This concept is truly ridiculous, but it seems to be the latest attempt of the Mormon Leadership to excuse Joseph Smith by humiliating the general membership of their own Church.) This on-the-street interview I had with President Hintze started when he approached me on the street with a very aggressive and accusatory attitude saying:

You are a liar and all apostates are liars” followed by, “Why do you have to come here to preach?”

I responded with both authority and commitment,

“Because this is the False Church that lied to me, and I then lied to my children and grandchildren about Joseph Smith based on the lies told to me.”

I then reminded President Hintze that,

It was Joseph Smith who had lied about Polygamy to his wife and his own Church; that it was Joseph Smith that had lied about translating the Book of Mormon and that it was Joseph Smith who had lied about the Priesthood, the Bible, the Mormon Temple and any requirement to do Baptisms for the Dead.”

I then offered my complete packet of Official Mormon Church Gospel Topic Essays for President Hintze to read and select one issue to respond to. Just one issue from the packet of 13 Essays for him to comment on was all that was asked of this life-time Leader in the Mormon Church.

He returned the packet the next day without a single comment, without a single statement, clearly establishing him as a disgraceful man who cannot justify his own words or defend his accusations against me. I pray for him and his family; that they may be set free from the bonds of arrogance and deceit.

Another interview I had was on-camera with the Current Manti Utah Temple President Lonnie B. Nally and with Sister Kaye P. Nally. I asked them:

Is there any ceremony, ritual or activity conducted within the Mormon Temple that can be considered either Biblical or Authentic to the ancient Temple of God in Jerusalem?

With some very awkward hesitation they only said:

We do not have the time to speak with you right now.”

In actuality, they know as we have preached many times, that there is absolutely no connection in form, function or purpose between the Biblical Temple of God and the scandalous Mormon Temples.


I met Patty at the drinking fountain and asked her if this was her first time to the Pageant. She said, “yes” and I asked how long she had been a member. When she told me she was a lifetime member of the Mormon Church, I let her know that I too was raised LDS but had left the church a few years ago.

She said, “Oh that’s too bad! Why did you leave?” I shared with her our story on how when we were teaching the YSA’s (Young Single Adults) their Christian friends had starting asking them questions, so we invited them to our home for the YSA FHE(Young Single Adults Family Home Evening) for a question and answer night with the missionaries.

Soon their questions became our questions. I told Patty how we’d just come back from a trip to Israel a week before coming out to Utah and how Israel made the Bible now appear in Techno-Color instead of Black and White! I shared how amazing it was to learn about the Biblical temple and how the Mormon temple did not resemble the Biblical temple at all. I asked her,

“Do you know who could go into the temple during Biblical Times? I explained to her that only the men from the tribe of Levi were allowed in and only the High Priest, once a year, was allowed into the Holy of Holies to make atonement for the people. Never were the women allowed in. And how many Temples were there in Biblical Times? Only ONE! And Baptism for the Dead, was NEVER practiced in the Biblical Temple. There was a Lavar, also called the Sea, for ceremonial washing of the High Priest, not for Baptisms for the Dead! Then I reminded her that the current Mormon Prophet, Boyd K. Packer said that the Mormon temple was a restoration of the Biblical Temple. But were learned that is not true at all!   There were NEVER Temple Marriages performed in the Biblical Temple.”

I then asked Patty if she had read the church Essays? She had no clue what they were, so I explained to her how the First Presidency had come out with 13 Gospel Topics Essays on LDS.org.   She asked what they spoke of, so I told her of one Essay titled, “The Translation of the Book of Mormon.” I explained to her how the church said in the Essay that Joseph Smith did not use the gold plates to translate the Book of Mormon, but he used a stone in a hat. She could not believe her ears!

Patty’s sister was nearby and so she turned and asked her if she had ever heard that Joseph Smith did not use the gold plates to translate the Book of Mormon, but that he used a stone in a hat? Her sister said, “Of course I know that.” So I asked the two sisters if they had heard that there are 9 different versions of the First Vision? Patty said “no,” but her sister said, “Yes, I knew that.”

By this time Patty’s sister’s husband had wandered over to join our conversation. He found I had left the church and wanted to know why. So I told him that I believed in one God, yet Mormonism teaches of multiple Gods when they say that you can become Gods and Goddesses yourselves. This lead to me asking them to read Mosiah 15:1-5.   I asked,

“Did you know that Mosiah 15:1-5 speaks of how Christ is both the Father and the Son?”

They responded, “Well just like you have a body and a Spirit, God has a body and a spirit, so this passage is speaking of two separate individuals, God the Father and Jesus Christ the son, both with physical bodies.” Mosiah 15:1-5 in the Book of Mormon reads:

“And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son — The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.  And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.”

I politely ended our conversation by asking if we could pray together before the Pageant started? They said, “yes” so we held hands and I prayed that each one of us would be able to have the Holy Spirit lead us to truth and understanding of God’s word. Then, Patty’s sister walked away and I asked Patty if she would at least take the time to look online at the Biblical Temple vs the Mormon Temple. She said that she would. I left her with my email information if she desired to talk again.

Katherine and Rachel

Two young college aged women (Katherine & Rachel) shared with me how they witnessed to Mormons at the Pageant. They started off by asking Mormons if they would mind sharing their “testimony” with them. The Christian Missionaries would then share their testimony of Jesus Christ and with the Mormon People. Part of their testimony included Romans 10:9-10:

“If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.”

Out of the several Mormon testimonies they had heard during their week at the Manti Pageant, it saddened them that only two Mormons included Christ in their testimony. Most Mormon testimonies told how they knew Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the LDS church was true. I really liked their non-threatening approach in sharing their Christian testimonies with Mormons.

Another encouraging conversation we had was with a Christian Woman and her 14 year old daughter who had left the LDS Church just 10 months ago. They wore T-Shirts with a cross on them that said, “Ask Me Why I Left the Mormon Church:” They were bearing witness of Jesus Christ and that we are saved by Grace…not by our works. Praise God! (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 6:23; 11:6).

In closing, Kathy and I met with an Associate Pastor from a small Baptist Church in Salt Lake City last week. He told us that he has overheard local Mormons discussing our Radio programs in Home Depot and a small Grocery Store. They may not always call the our radio program, but they are certainly listening.

Thank you for your support. Thank you so very Much!

Lee and Kathy Baker

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Author: Lee Baker

Former Mormon Bishop Lee Baker - As a member of the Mormon faith for 32 years, having served honorably in many Leadership positions at the Branch, Ward and Stake level, I forced my own excommunication in 2008 after several painful years of meetings and letters to the highest levels of the Mormon Church concerning questions of doctrine and history.